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Ian
Nov-05-2008, 17:18 GMT
Norway


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Good Point Bodo. I guess that might have been one of the original reasons the Steve Berlin interview annoyed me so much. If we start getting into who wrote or borrowed a particular line of melody or lyric/phrase,CD´s will have to be released with a ´War and Peace´ size book attached just to cover writer/composer credits. Paul´s solo albums from the 70´s onwards,read like a session musicians listing. All these players are paid for their particular talents which often includes being asked not to just play their instrument,but to ´write´ their own part,or to do on the spot ´head´ arrangements. This is how not only Paul,but many solo singer songwriters,work in the studio with session players. It is standard practice. Maybe Paul just forgot that Los Lobos were creative artists in their own right,and not paid session guys who are used to this practice. Actually Donald Fagen was also accused of not correctly crediting a certain musician for his ´writing´ of his part on Fagen´s superb 1982 album ´The Nightfly´...

Scaaty
Nov-05-2008, 18:38 GMT
Ireland


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There was An article last week in one of the national papers about a bridge being built from the Irish Republic to Northern Ireland over an inlet which used to be heavily policed during the Troubles. The headline was Bridge Over Troubled Waters - I´m sure Paul Simon would not object to that!

Bodo
Nov-05-2008, 18:47 GMT
Austria


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I did some research on the net, and the conclusion is that you can not protect a phrase - except it is a trademark of a product.


"The U.S. Copyright Office states that Names, titles, and short phrases or expressions are not subject to copyright protection. Even if a name, title, or short phrase is novel or distinctive or if it lends itself to a play on words, it cannot be protected by copyright."

Bodo
Nov-05-2008, 18:47 GMT
Austria


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I did some research on the net, and the conclusion is that you can not protect a phrase - except it is a trademark of a product.


"The U.S. Copyright Office states that Names, titles, and short phrases or expressions are not subject to copyright protection. Even if a name, title, or short phrase is novel or distinctive or if it lends itself to a play on words, it cannot be protected by copyright."

Gerard
Nov-06-2008, 00:11 GMT
New Zealand


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Reminds me about one song on an album by Anderson, Howe, Wakeman & Bruford (thats the band formerly known as YES at a time when they could´nt use the band name) where Jon Anderson actually sings a Paul Simon line from The Boy In The Bubble complete with reference to the author. The line goes "these are days of miricle and wonder Simon says".

As for the whole issue of plagerism, I like the definition that goes "stealing one persons idea is plagerism, stealing many peoples is research".

I questions whether in fact there are any truly original ideas. That´s not whats even interesting. The key is using ideas & influences and advancing them to making them original and uniquely your own. Paul Simon´s work is an excellent example of that talent - which should´nt be underestimated.

ROTS is my favourte album, but there is no denying the freshness and vitality that was Graceland at that time of release. It was his commercial & artistic masterpiece. The fact that there were tracks that he used in the same way he used El Condor Pasa does not diminish the acheivement. The blend of what became those songs is a fine acheivement and uniquely Paul Simon.

Ans
Nov-06-2008, 03:41 GMT
Netherlands


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I have the vinyl with the reversed back and front picture as well as the original first printed vinyl. Los Lobos is credited on both of them. As the other musicians who co-wrote with him on the album. I think Paul wrote a good explanation on the back of the album sleeve how he got interested in the African music and where the music from the songs came from, who he worked with etc. FE he writes: The music for I Know What I Know comes from an album by General M.D. Shirinda and the Gaza Sisters, a Shangaan froup from Gazangkulu, a small town near Petersburg in northern South Africa.
About Los Lobos he writes: Los Lobos is a well known East L.A. band whose music I admire. They also use accordion and saxophone, and combine them with straight-ahead rock `n` roll. The Los Lobos sessions were completed in June of `85 at Amigo Studios in Los Angeles. IMO it was a matter of money, Los Lobos thought they could share in the huge success after it became a big hit. I bet they wouldn`t have said anything if the album was a flopâ?¦

About the songwriting I have to agree with Gerard. ROTS is also my favourite. All the songs are very good which is not the case at Graceland, in fact YCCMA get`s boring to me when I hear it too often. It`s one of the songs I often skip when I listen to the album or a live concert.
Paul talks very open about his songwriting even early on at the Dick Cavett show, telling how he kind of stole the lyric BOTW from the Swan Silvertones. Dick Cavett likes Paul`s explanation when he gets stuck in a song and how he finds his way out of itâ?¦;-)

Ian
Nov-06-2008, 04:14 GMT
Norway


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Hi Ans,you know for years I thought the reversed cover vinyl version was just a local Australian Problem,but it seems it happened in at least one other country. I am doubting very seriously that an initial pressing of Graceland existed that didn´t contain all the credits. As I said,I got mine two days earlier than the actual release date and there´s no way it existed commercially before that. Maybe like Bodo suggests,there were promotional copies advanced to radio stations that had incorrect credits listed. But like you said Ans,Paul has always very diligenty credited his backing musicians etc on all his albums,that it is hard to believe he would,by accident or design,not include the correct credits on Graceland.

Ans
Nov-06-2008, 09:40 GMT
Netherlands


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My reversed vinyl is produced in Mexico, I found it at a flea market about 5 years ago in good condition.

HÃ¥kan
Nov-06-2008, 13:01 GMT
USA - United Staates America


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One of the things that actually suggests that there is some truth in what Los Lobos claims, is the fact that member of Los Lobos (I´ve forgotten his name) who sings with Paul on "All Around The World" also is singing his part on the early version that was invluded as a bonustrack when Graceland was rereleased some years ago.

What I mean is that it seems implausible that any of the Los Lobos would come in at a later stage (when Paul had "finished" the recording of the song) and sing his part if they felt that Paul had stolen their song. It seems much more probable that (most of) the vocals were recorded in the first recording session. How could otherwise an "early version" has vocals by a Los Lobos member?

Ian
Nov-06-2008, 13:34 GMT
Unknown


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Yes, I get what you´re saying,but from what I read of both Berlin´s and Paul´s comments,the sessions were quite protracted with subsequent return visits to the studio by all concerned to get the basic track down. So the initial sessions would have given Paul a tape to work with to fashion the melody and lyrics,then possibly a return visit so Paul could teach David Hidalgo not only the words,but the majority of the melody as well [I still stand by the belief that musically,that melody has many traits in common with Paul´s melody writing]. It is from this period that the early version you speak of could have been taken. I assume then that Paul and Roy Hallee would take the multitrack tape back to New York to overdub or completely re-record his vocals and acoustic guitar. Berlin I think,says it wasn´t till Graceland was released without their writers credit that they first contacted Paul. I´m willing to bet it was much later after the release and it´s subsequent success,that it became an issue with Los Lobos.

Bodo
Nov-06-2008, 14:35 GMT
Austria


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About the flag - yes Ian, that might be the problem. If you click on the IP you can make a whois search...and there comes this opera entry too.

BTW: You are surfing on this site with a mobile phone? Is that possible? I mean, how big is the screen of that phone then?...

Ian
Nov-06-2008, 15:55 GMT
Norway


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Yeah Bodo,I am using a mobile phone[for a couple more months yet]. It is not ideal as I mentioned,but it allows me to do most things I need,send,receive emails,download music,video,watch youtube and use this site of course. It´s just a standard size mobile screen,2.4 inches I think. The browser I Installed overcomes the very limited screen size by displaying everything in a linear fashion. Everything is there,just displayed differently. The big advantage is to be able to have the internet in my pocket literally,wherever I go,and on the 3g network I get almost broadband speeds.

Nikki
Nov-06-2008, 21:27 GMT
France


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What an interesting discussion! Unfortunately I can´t seem to find Paul´s comments on the dreamer of music site, but here are my thoughts on the matter. Firstly, I had no idea about this whole issue, and it´s of particular interest cos Fingerprints was the first PS song I´d ever heard. In terms of the whole plagiarism thing, well like many of you have already said, it´s a delicate issue - in literature we take intertextuality for granted and I guess we even treat it as an achievement if it´s well done (esp with the whole postmodern craze) - and I guess the tradition is less recognised in music but of course it plays a large role too in musical compositions, well more so for some than for others I guess.

Ian
Nov-07-2008, 01:02 GMT
Norway


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Hi Nikki,on TheDreamerofMusic site,from the homepage,look for ´Paul explains his work´ and you should find Paul´s comments about the Los Lobos issue.

HÃ¥kan
Nov-07-2008, 10:29 GMT
USA - United Staates America


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Another thing (maybe this should get a new thread?) which I was reminded about when reading Paul´s statement about the "Los Lobos affair" is that the first songs Paul writes for an album is usually much better than the last songs he does. Like in the Graceland project, where he just seemed to want to be finished with it.

In many cases we of course don´t know exactly what he did first and last. But take "Hearts & Bones" which I think (from memory) has songs copyrighted 1981, 1982 and 1983. I think the songs he did in 1981 is much better than those in 1983, don´t you agree?

And certainly is the 6 first songs on Graceland generally much stronger than the 5 last (which I think was written before the 5 last)?

(I´n not situated in the U.S. but in Sweden)

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