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Ian
Nov-05-2008, 04:55 GMT
Norway


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Hi everyone. I apologize if this topic has already been discussed in any way,but it seems everytime I am googling a query with Paul´s name used,I come across this negative and slimy interview with Steve Berlin,who truly puts the retrospective knife into Paul´s good name. The whole contentious issue is to do with the last song on Graceland,´All Around The World´,which Paul recorded with Los Lobos. They have accused Paul of literally stealing their song and not giving them due credit. Well this really rankles me. For a start,you can´t claim a copyright on a chord progression,and that apart from their actual physical contribution in recording the song,the most that they contributed WAS the chord progression! Certainly,the melody has that unmistakable Paul Simon quality to it. Paul Simon does not need to ´steal´ such simple progressions. Check the chords for Jonah for example,as evidence of his talent in this area. What next,Steve Gadd wanting a writers credit for ´50 ways´ Ludicrous! Any Thoughts?

Ian
Nov-05-2008, 05:05 GMT
Norway


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Hi Bodo,it seems I am flying the wrong flag[Norway]. I am Australian. I think this has happened because I´m using my mobile phone,with an Opera Mini Browser. ´Opera´, I believe are situated in Norway. Maybe that´s the problem.?

Ans
Nov-05-2008, 10:24 GMT
Netherlands


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Hi Ian,
This subject came up before and you are right, they can´t claim anything. Paul has always been very thoughtful in crediting people who worked with him and he still does. He has a huge respect for the musicians who work and worked with him and always payed them well. At the site of thedreamerofmusic.com you can find a section where ´Paul explains his work´. Paul´s answer to the Los Lobos matter is right at the top.

Ian
Nov-05-2008, 11:24 GMT
Unknown


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Hi Ans,thanks for the link to ´thedreamerofmusic´ site. Paul´s response in this interview has the absolute ring of truth to it. I doubt this whole thing would have become an issue if Graceland hadn´t become the big hit it was. I first heard about it as just a 4 or 5 line piece in an Australian music magazine in 1987! I had no idea it was such an acrimonious issue until many years later. Steve Berlin´s further comment that Los Lobos ´never jam´ as a band,´NEVER´,seems highly unlikely. That´s one of the most enjoyable things about playing music with other players,the casual jam. It´s also the way Paul wrote ´Late In The Evening´. It developed from a jam on Elvis´s ´Mystery Train´. Just a storm in a 3 chord teacup,I think.

Bodo
Nov-05-2008, 13:57 GMT
Austria


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Hi Ian and Ans.

That are just things I have heard:

First. The Graceland album came in a first edition without any credits to any other artists (which wrote parts of songs like Diamonds, boy in the bubble aso.) So - Paul was not very thoughtful about that issue in that time.

If we remember back he always had trouble with copyrights (Scarborough fair, El condor passa, Anji,...) He collects a lot of influences, and sometimes he went much too far when saying he WROTE that song.


Second: I have heard a story that especially on the last 2 songs he recorded for Graceland - All Around The World and That Was Your Mother - Paul really did not do much (he wanted to finish the album, but knew that he need 2 more songs [the album concept of 10 songs...]. He went into the studio, the band was already waiting there, they recorded the thing in a few takes, and thats it. Later he wrote the lyrics to these songs.
This goes in hand with the short stories about these songs on the back side of the Graceland LP.
I think that a few of the songs on Graceland have just been adapted from already recorded songs by the bands contributing. I am talking about songs like: Gumboots, I Know What I Know, and also That was your mother.


So, I think the answer is not so easy. My guess is that Los Lobos did much more than just playing a chord progression. They had the concept of a song, and Paul asked what they already have, and continued the work. It is not one of the really great songs on the album (Graceland, Diamonds, Call me Al, Boy in the bubble), so the discussion could end here. I think neither Paul nor Los Lobos could be that proud of the song (I like the song - what I mean is that this song is NOT REALLY IMPORTANT for the album)

But I still say: In the time of Graceland, Paul was diggin on already Old ground, and taking a lot of things. On Rhythm Of The Saints he made much more in my opinion.

Bodo
Nov-05-2008, 13:59 GMT
Austria


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But Elvis was not in the studio with Paul in 1979/80, ... I guess :-D

mog
Nov-05-2008, 15:04 GMT
Canada


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Humm...quite interesting. I really like that comment about Ryhthm of the Saints.

I did not know that the 1st issue of Graceland did not give proper credits to other people.

By the way, I have always wondered: is it because of the litigious thing about The Myth of Fingerprints that Simon does not play it live ? Has he ever played it live ?

I agree that the song is not a major one in the Graceland vehicule, but, quite frankly, nowadays I would take such a song anytime in Simon´s current work. I am hungry for something catchy a little !!!

Mimi
Nov-05-2008, 15:24 GMT
Austria


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I doubt that the credits were not given on the first version of Graceland. I bought the LP on the day, when it was available in Europe and as far as I know, it was distributed worldwide on the same day. And on my LP there are all the credits that are on later ones.

Mimi
Nov-05-2008, 15:29 GMT
Austria


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And for the other songs like Scarbourough fair, El Condor Pasa and Anji.

Anji is credited to Dave Graham on the LP that I own. El condor Pasa is credited to Jorge Michelberg with english lyrics by PS. And we are talking about a time, when it was highly unusual to credit someone on the sleeve notes. In the 60s Nobody credited the musicians that played on the record.

Bodo
Nov-05-2008, 15:52 GMT
Austria


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Hi Mimi

I only know that from this - very Old - discussion on AMPS.
But in fact it were not that many songs, thats right, it was only 1 song not credited right.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.music.paul-simo
n/browse_thread/thread/5c551104e8c15e7e/3f8691fcd8
d4ddf4?lnk=gst&q=Graceland+credits#3f8691fcd8d
4ddf4

I can not say if this issure of the LP was maybe only a pre-released LP for the radio stations or whatever, and later they changed it. But you see, beside Los Lobos also other musicians were not that happy.

Scaaty
Nov-05-2008, 15:57 GMT
Ireland


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I have the original releases of S&G greatest hits, Greatest Hits etc and there are no credits to anyone on these. Many albums I bought at the time had no info on them. I guess we were just not as info hungry in those days!

Ian
Nov-05-2008, 16:01 GMT
Norway


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Hi Bodo,I bought my [first] copy of Graceland in late August 86. I bought it on CD not LP,and I actually got it on pre-release on a Saturday,while it was actually meant to go on sale on the following monday. We drove two and a half hours to get it,and that very first copy had all credits intact,though in the same store they were taking all the vinyl copies of Graceland out of the racks as someone at the printing company had reversed the back and front pictures on the album sleeve,using on the front,the picture of Paul with round specs instead of the very familiar Peabody Museum piece we all know. So now I´m pondering if that was the original album you mentioned,and that maybe it was pulled because apart from the sleeve problems,it may not have had the credits we now know it to have. I hope that´s not the case though. You´re certainly correct in your higher regard for ROTS,Bodo. It´s a beautiful,multi-faceted textural piece of work,that is far more ´Paul Simon´ in feel and style than was Graceland.

Bodo
Nov-05-2008, 16:11 GMT
Austria


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As for the other songs - I just said he always had problems with the copyrights. It was more like that he has taken the re-arrangements of other musicians, and did not credit them, he credited the original musician (thats right)

I only have followed some discussions years ago. Like this one about Scarborough Fair:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.music.paul-simo
n/browse_thread/thread/9e1da7ce1e91a02d/3a0fb8849b
348731?hl=en&lnk=gst&q=copyright#3a0fb8849
b348731

We know that Paul and Martin Carthy did not talk to each other for years.
http://www.paul-simon.info/PHP/collaboration_all.p
hp?id=9


Or the story who really wrote Paul´s version of Anji. (in the end it is Pauls technique of playing the guitar making it different... ? maybe)



Paul is a collector of music (in his brain), and re-invents things often. And I guess sometimes also other people had the idea, and Paul knew how to produce and record that thing...
But beside that he wrote many more songs alone I would say.

Bodo
Nov-05-2008, 16:15 GMT
Austria


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Hello Ian - thats a very interesting story. Well, it goes in hand with the story I was reading on AMPS (I posted the link) years before. I did not know they changed the picture. But it is interesting that this LP was in stores, - as I was not able to buy one of the first LP´s (haha), I could only think that it might have been a pre-release for radio stations.

Bodo
Nov-05-2008, 16:19 GMT
Austria


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BTW: This discussion brings me to another point. Are parts of lyrics copyright protected?
Well...I guess yes. But do all these ´50 ways...´ combinations infringe the copyright of Paul Simon?


And - now be carefull.
Is Paul Simon the copyright holder of sentences like
Mother And Child Reunion
Bridge Over Troubled Water

???
Well he said that he has taken the first one from a chinese dish, and the second line from a gospel priest (or something ...I just remember that he talked about it on TV where he has taken this sentence)

So now... who is allowed to use these sentences today?

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