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| Headline | Villains in Music |
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| Author | Comment |
gypsy
Jun-30-2005, 21:33 GMT
IP:
United Kingdom
 | I have just been reading my sisters music magazine, Q, which has a list of the "50 Biggest Villains in Music." I expeced to see people like Simon Cowell, Fred Durst, Gene Simmons etc...but was shocked to read the entry at number 36...none other than Paul Simon!
I quote in full from the article:
"Grumpy short-arse with a tendency for alienating everyone from Art Garfunkel to Princess Leia (ex-wife Carrie Fisher).
MOST DASTARDLY DEED: Put his own name on the copyright for folk singer Martin Carthy´s version of Scarborough Fair, and turned it into a profitable hit."
I mean, honestly! I know Paul isn´t exactly a "shiny happy person" but i think this is going just a bit too far...I am tempted to boycott the magazine from now on...
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Crissy
Jul-01-2005, 04:20 GMT
IP:
USA - United Staates America
 | Wow! jeez, that´s so horrible! Though, being a fan, I would expect to be bias, but still, that´s just a harsh thing to say about anyone! |
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Klausi
Jul-01-2005, 07:08 GMT
IP:
Germany
 | It is not for the first time!
After 1965 Simon was never eager to be in the press, so one can imagine his or his managers communication whith those "Papparazzies".
The harshed big change was in "Melody Maker". Patrick Humphries, his Fan and Biograph, wrote there friendly about him.
But in the early eighties he was obviously gone, and younger fellows were "upset" about this man making an album in Apartheid-South-Africa, where today as many crimes happen as ever (not more, but also not less). And even worse, no (direct) statement against Apartheid in the lyrics.
Two meanings in the music world 1986/87:
1.) he was stealing local music to make money.
2.) Nobody did more for black people and minorities than Simon in his long career.
As usual, few meanings between in the press.
But the whole discussion helped to make Graceland even more popular, that was good indeed! |
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Bodo
Jul-01-2005, 08:30 GMT
IP:
Austria
 | Put his own name on the copyright for folk singer Martin Carthy´s version of Scarborough Fair, and turned it into a profitable hit.
That sentence doesn´t make any sence. It´s like writting.
"Put his own name on the copyright for Metallica´s version of Whiskey in the Jar."
I never understood why this song should belong to Martin Charty, because it is a traditional song AFAIK. Charty only teached it to Paul.
P.S: What does alienating mean in that context? |
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Crissy
Jul-01-2005, 15:29 GMT
IP:
USA - United Staates America
| Alienating, I think, it is saying that Paul became hostile, or indifferent to Art and Carrie whereas before there was attachment and Love...? possibly. At least, that´s what I got out of it. |
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John Whapshott
Jul-04-2005, 12:45 GMT
IP:
Sweden
 | Paul didn´t ´acquire´ Scarborough Fair the song, but Martin Carthy´s arrangement of it. It´s not the first or last time in rock history... For example, Alan Price copyrighted The Animals´ arrangement of House Of The Rising Sun, even though it´s another folk tune, and he too has made a lot of money from it.
Incidentally, I saw the Carthy/Simon version of Scarborough Fair when Paul was in London (2000?). Carthy played very nervously! I´ve seen him in folk clubs, where his attitude seemed to be that we mortals should be grateful that such a great man has honoured us with his presence. But with Paul he made a lot of mistakes... Does anyone care anymore? |
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Turkey
Jul-04-2005, 13:25 GMT
IP:
United Kingdom
| *grmubles about todays culture* |
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Guido
Jul-04-2005, 18:09 GMT
IP:
Italy
 | We are Simon´s fans; we appreciate his work; and of course we tend to defend him. But we should be able to admit that with "Scarborough fair" the right way should have been a different one. Simon and Garfunkel should have written: "Scarborough Fair/Canticle. Traditional, guitar arrangement by M. Carthy. Original counter-melody and lyrics by Simon and Garfunkel". That would have closed the door to any complaint and quarrel, that would have been the truth.
Paul learnt a lot from that experience and he gave full credits to the Graceland musicians (who were not robbed or exploited, as many of them have clearly stated on several occasions). However, that album was controversial for one additional reason - the quarrel with Los Lobos, who claimed writing credits about "All Around The World".
Still about "Scarborough fair", it is interesting to notice that Bob Dylan wrote a song ("Girl from the North Country") where some of the lyrics say: "remember me to one who lives there, she once was a true Love of mine" - not very original, isn´t it? |
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Bodo
Jul-05-2005, 09:36 GMT
IP:
Austria
| Hi Guido! I just want to mention something: What I have read is that Simon did NOT give any writter Credits to the Graceland musicians in it´s first release on the LP. Some people still have one of these LP´s.
It is sometimes hard to say who has really written a song, and who has just add a few guitar riffs. In the end always Paul decides what he wants to keep and what not.
In the end a lot of people got credits on Graceland for adding a few lyrics or the main african rhythm.
BTW. A link I´ve just found - scroll down and see that behind LOS LOBOS stands:
http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/store/artist/album
/0,,163252,00.html
funny :-)
I don´t know Carthy´s version of Scarborough Fair, but from what I have heard Paul Simons guitar playing on the song is more complex - so it´s an adaptation of an a arrangement of an traditional song... Anyway, you are right he could have mentioned him, but back in these days I guess ´copyright´ wasn´t the most important word in the music buisness.
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John Whapshott
Jul-05-2005, 12:15 GMT
IP:
Sweden
| I think there´s a difference between contributions and wholesale lifting. Maybe the most famous example for us is the drum riff in 50 Ways... That was entirely Steve Gadd´s creation, but he has never tried to claim royalties or copyright. And I recall Art saying he wrote lines like ´I´m talking ´bout your sex appeal´ in Baby Driver, but again never claimed a share. I wouldn´t say Paul´s version of Scarborough Fair is more complex - it´s just shifting an Am pattern up and down, with C, D and G. Let´s be honest and say it was a mistake on Paul´s part. One struggling musician nicks something from another struggling musician. We´ve all done it...! |
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Bodo
Jul-05-2005, 13:09 GMT
IP:
Austria
| Ah, you are right. I mixed that up with Anji ... another song Paul took from another musician ;-) (but his version is better)
About Steve Gadd. Isn´t it so that it easier for a guitar player to get credits for writing the music, than for a drummer? Thats not really fair... :-) |
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Guido
Jul-05-2005, 16:42 GMT
IP:
Italy
| Hi Bodo, and thanks for the link! :-) It is funny that the Lobos contribution is represented by a... question mark!!! LOL! But if you take a look more carefully, you will notice that there are the name of the musicians (David Hidalgo, Cesar Rosas and the rest of the band) and the instrument they played on the album.
I got the original LP of Graceland, and the enhanced cd as well, and as far as I can remember there are no differences in the credits, but I will check that.
The example of Steve Gadd is the same done by Paul, when talking about the problem with Los Lobos. He said that he wrote the song Fifty ways on the pattern created by Steve, but Steve never claimed any credit, as he had already been paid for his work as "creative session man".
Still about credits, Art wrote several lines of lyrics (like those mentioned above) and music (like the horn part in "The Boxer"). I would say that his work fell in the area of production and arrangement (absolutely relevant, for the final result), more than in that of real songwriting. He was asked about this topic several times, and he has always admitted that Paul was the songwriter, the songs were Paul´s work even when he was giving suggestions or contributions. Nevertheless, I think that at least once he said that he might have asked for larger credits. I think that you should check for Paul Zollo´s interview.
Ciao! :-)
P.S. I post this again (almost identical) because the previous attempt to post failed... hope not to see it twice in the thread. Sorry if that happens :-) |
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Mimi
Jul-05-2005, 18:54 GMT
IP:
Austria
| Hello!
I also have die original LP and the credits are there. I bought it when the album was released and I can´t imagine, that there was another version before. But maybe there are the releases in America and Europe differ, although I doubt that.
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Klausi
Jul-05-2005, 20:55 GMT
IP:
Germany
| Paul Simon did give writers credits right from the beginning of Graceland`s release. I still have the LP from August 1986. And the trouble with Los Lobos was, neither had an idea of the final song, so there was room about fighting after the big success.
Michael Brecker created the famous Sax-Solo on "Still crazy".
I think you could find many many quite direct influences on Simons songs and those of other musicians too, as music is, according to Simon "a free floating area, the result counts".
He must have heard thousands of songs, and it is probably more difficult for him to remember the sources than to have forgotten them.
He remembered the title "Slip slidin`away" coming from a fifties song "Slippin` and sliding".
In the sixties and sometimes also in the seventies there were no lyrics and no musicians mentioned on the LP-covers backside.
The matter is only relevant if success and money is involved.
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Micky
Jul-07-2005, 21:13 GMT
IP:
United Kingdom
| I read that artcile and quickly put it down...really anoyed me.
As for alianating himself from Carrie Fisher, given how she behaved towards him during their 5 year relationship I think she did it herself. She almost demanded they should marry or she´d leave him, which she did frequently. I remember once reading, in one biography, that she asked him in bed...he obviously said no because she got up and left...
Of course this is all hear say. (That was my disclamer by the way)
Hugs
Me |
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