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| Headline | The Capeman |
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| Author | Comment |
Scaaty
May-02-2009, 18:54 GMT
Ireland
 | First just to clarify something I said in that Old thread I was not suggesting that Paul was not cool but a young person (Turkey) starting college might suddenly feel that as she hasn´t posted for a long time. and was responsible for one of the longest threads in this forum.
Anyway to get to this topic, I have just been listening to the full cast version of the Capeman (many thanks to someone on this site).
I´d Love to have a discussion about it - what songs did paul write? The story itself? was Sal guilty?what happened to the Umbrella man? and what is it about mothers and their sons, the way they always see them as the "angel they washed and fed"?
I´ve a few thoughts myself but would like to get the discussion going first.
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Ian
May-02-2009, 19:56 GMT
USA - United Staates America
 | Hi Scaaty,sorry,I wasn´t implying anything by my statement about Paul´s coolness. I get concerned about young people on this site being influenced by their friends who listen to newer,younger acts too. Because the output by Paul is not prolific,their admiration for Paul may be tested. My comment was aimed at them,not you Scaaty. About the Capeman-Was he guilty? He was guilty of course,but I think Paul is commenting on the Old ´is society to blame´ theory,or that young people in groups like that can commit atrocities that they would not consider doing if alone. Guilty yes,but deserving of the death penalty,or life imprisonment? I guess it all depends where your opinion of capital punishment lies. If you were the family of the slain boy,even the most ardent anti-death penalty supporter would have their beliefs tested I´m sure... |
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Ans
May-03-2009, 07:19 GMT
Netherlands
 | AFAIK Paul wrote the music, the lyrics where done 50-50 by Paul and Derek Walcott. They wrote so closely together that afterwards they couldn´t tell who wrote exactly which part of the lyrics.
The song Can I Forgive Him is very good written, the heart of the story is told here, the mother who cannot understand that her son who she nursed as a child did this terrible crime, can she forgive him? or not... it stays her son, she lost him too. The mothers of the victims lost their sons and they can hate Salvador, but can you hate your own son? And can the mothers of the victims forgive Salvador? Their religion tells them to but how do you do that? The pain, anger and sorrow they all feel is so well described here.
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Scaaty
May-04-2009, 11:51 GMT
Ireland
| thats an interesting point Ans I never thought of that song as Esmeralda not forgiving her own son. It puts a different slant on it for sure.
From the musical all his life his mother was blaming everyone else for any thing he did wrong. And she was also very fatalistic about him turning to a life of violence, but through no fault of his own or hers.
Its almost as if because society was prejudiced against them and expected the Puerto Ricans to be bad there was no choice but to go down that road. |
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Ans
May-04-2009, 14:09 GMT
Netherlands
| Well, maybe I see it the wrong way but this song gives me that feeling (in between the lines)
Yes, she blames society and defends her son but a part of herself cannot understand why her son committed this crime, but maybe I think too much...
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Ian
May-04-2009, 15:48 GMT
USA - United Staates America
| Ans,I think that´s spot on actually. Who wouldn´t be conflicted at such a time? I´ve known parents,usually mothers,whose children have been found responsible for crimes a lot less significant than this one who behave exactly the way you say. That´s human nature for sure. It´s like some intermittent anaesthetic from which they come in and out of. At one moment blaming society at large for what their child did,and the next moment all but disowning the same child for the shame they have brought on the family etc and back again. As for who wrote which lines,to me there are lines that leave me in no doubt,that Paul wrote them. Having said that,I´ve never had the pleasure of reading anything else by Derek Walcott,so I can´t really be certain as to his style. Lines like ´and the sky is a coat of diamonds´ or ´You´d have to be Jesus on the cross´ or ´My feted son,he too is gone´ just sound like Paul Simon to me. |
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Scaaty
May-04-2009, 16:06 GMT
Ireland
| Some of the songs that are sung at the church meetings - are they actual hymns that are used, or a varient of them adapted by Puerto Ricans, or Paul or Derek Walcott. or totally new?
Also the church meetings seem very evangelical, Salvadors stepfather appears to be a Pastor of such a church Yet can I forgive him is very Catholic in flavour and I would have thought that Peurto Ricans would be Catholic.
No Ans I don´t think you´ve mis read the song but have seen beyond it- I had always just taken as a conversation between 2 mothers. The line "my son he too has gone" could mean the innocent child has disappeared as well as the fact that her son has gone to prison and therefore is gone too. |
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mog
May-04-2009, 16:53 GMT
Canada
 | By the way, on the whole, I have always interpreted the failure of The Capeman as the answer to its main question: is redemption after murders possible in a modern society ?
The answer was a big no. No matter how Agron spent his time and prison, and became a "good citizen", one has seen that the wounds of the tragedy was still very vivid when the show was staged (demonstrations, etc.). I also remember the BAM shows, comments on blogs were still very agressive toward the musical and Simon.
As far as I know, The Umbrella Man still lives in the shadows nowadays.
After a murder, you live forever with that stigma, no matter rehabilitation mechanisms that society put it in place. |
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Scaaty
May-08-2009, 10:41 GMT
Ireland
| But surely as a 16 year Old who committed these murders many people can say ...there but for the grace of God go I, my brother, my son, my father..
Armies around the world have taken advantage of young mens cavalier attitude to life and death and made them into (albeit controlled) murderers. In Ireland at the moment - every weekend people are killed by the reckless driving of young men, even those whose brothers and friends have been recently been killed - this is murder too - yet society says boys will be boys!
Sal Agron was worshipped by his mother, who also seemed to still regard him as a baby, yet when he was out on the street he then had to prove he was a man. We all know as adults he would have been a bigger man if he said to the gang .. Sorry lads I prefer to go home and write "Hey School girl" instead of " We stand for the neighborhood. If you got cojones, come on, mette mano " but try telling that to your average 16 year old. |
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Ans
May-08-2009, 12:55 GMT
Netherlands
| Sal became a good and intelligent man. It´s sad that people didn´t see that. That´s what Paul was trying to tell in his musical. Despite committing a terrible crime in your youth you can change, in Sal´s Last Song he takes full responsibility. I still don´t get the evil comments that Paul was glorifying him.
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LuisM.
May-08-2009, 13:04 GMT
Spain
 | I think Paul is not trying to side with one extremist opinion about if a 16 years Old boy must be released or not, after such a crime what he committed.
I think Paul wants to talk about the extremely poverty of the life and environment that involved Salvador Agron up till the crimes.
Maybe want to tell us also that the Society can?t be innocent of such inequal treatment for a boy that in other situation (family, education, etc.), surely would never commit this murders.
I think he?s not talking about the forgive (only can answer this question the families who lost their sons and brothers).
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Ans
May-08-2009, 17:06 GMT
Netherlands
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I agree with you LuisM, I only touched a small part of the story with my comments. It is what interests me at the moment due to what happened in the Netherlands on Queens day where a 38 year Old man attacked the royal family trying to attack the heart of our society by driving his car in the public during the parade and killed 6 innocent people and himself and injured 10 innocent people. His family has to live with this terrible crime now.
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