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HeadlineThe myth about the myth of fingerprints is all around the world: Why Paul never plays that song?

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Michiel
Oct-25-2016, 00:16 GMT
Netherlands


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I now see the tread New Biography which also mentions the discussion. Sorry I did not see that thread when I wrote my reaction above a few minutes ago..

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Crawff
Jul-03-2017, 04:28 GMT
USA - United Staates America


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I like Paul Simon's music very much but good or great artists are not necessarily good people. You do not get the word out that you would like to "work" with other recording artists because you would like to pay them double scale to be on your record. But according to Paul he wanted some examples of "world music" on Graceland in addition to the South African music. That is why he had his people contact Los Lobos and the the Zydeco band - who also felt they were victims. At the time Los Lobos had fairly recently broken through and were experienced musicians but not businessmen. Their label asked them to do it as a favor accordind to Berlin.
What Paul got was very much a Latino Rock sound. Why not credit the musicians who helped with the melody from the beginning? Why did he retroactively credit many of the South Africans? If he didnt need help why not by some albums and work out the chord changes. Paul obviously needed more than inspiration. Nothing wrong with that but dont tell me about your generosity for paying double scale and a nice pkace to stay and eat. That is incredibly condescending and disingenuous. How about the women who introduced him to the music? Pretty funny, shes unemployed qnd he is bummed that hes last album didnt do well. So he's listening to this album as he drives out to the Hamptons to check on the house he was remodeling. Really. Paul's story. He doesn't even realize how full of shit he sounds - that's why he didn't bother to edit his story. The totol lack of awareness is what makes me suspect a total asshole. The kind of deep flaw that leads to a friendship with an asshole like Chevy Chase

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Bodo
Jul-04-2017, 13:30 GMT
Austria


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Nothing new here Crawff.

Beside the thing, that actually no one has ever seen a "earlier" Graceland release without credits for the African musicians/bands. (I understand you believe so, writting: "Why did he retroactively credit many of the South Africans?" - no Proof for that)

Heidi Berg has posted on this forum before btw., I asked her if she wants to tell the full story (in a way using less hate and disrespect, so her words would be taken serious).
I like the Graceland album a lot. But yes, it might not exist if Paul had not taken the opportunity (and just left the idea to Heidi Berg), thats one thing to consider. She would not have been able to record it or write songs like those.

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Richard USVI
Jul-05-2017, 15:54 GMT
USA - United Staates America


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Thanks Bodo for your measured and rational response to a strangely reasoned message. Given the boycott, it is bizarre to try to hold his offer of 'double scale' payment against PS. Also, I never met Chevy Chase, so I am not going to call him names -- he never did anything to me. However, I have met Paul Simon twice and on both occasions he was very much NOT an asshole.

The idea that PS would have to rip off a 'one hit wonder' like los lobos is silly. (And los lobos didn't even write la bamba.) But some people just enjoy negativity and are perhaps jealous of people with more talent and success and so negative stories never die.

By the way, the USA also didn't land on the moon in 1969 and space aliens killed JFK...

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Glnk
Jul-23-2017, 16:32 GMT
Unknown


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And Los Lobos are great musicians, no doubt about that, but to say that you have never jammed, not ever never in the life of the band as it was then constituted completely undercuts whatever legitimate point he may have been making. They may not be a jamband in a narrow technical sense but anyone who has praised the genre and played with the Grateful Dead has jammed.

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Bodo
Jul-24-2017, 09:42 GMT
Austria


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yeah, this did not help his arguments a lot.

I wondered myself: If they never jam, then 1 person alone must have written that song(music), but this person did not write down any notes - so how did he teach the other guys in the band the music (without jamming).
Anyway, that is all just details.
Paul Simon never denied btw, that they have written the music. In his answer he just wonders why the bring up the topic now..and that they never said anything before the lawyers letter. Yeah, I think they wrote that music, and I also think they did not say a lot back then.

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Glnk
Jul-26-2017, 17:18 GMT
USA - United Staates America


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It really is the fault of Lobos and management for not getting a legally binding agreement prior to the session. Complaining of plagiarism when the album was released is a dead end move no matter when it happens.

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Håkan
Jul-27-2017, 14:26 GMT
USA - United Staates America


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Well, I disagree to some extent...
It wasn't until the album came out that Los Lobos noticed that they weren't getting song co-writing credits. If they had received co-writing credit for the song I presume they would have been satisfied with that.

If Los Lobos is to blame for not writing a contract prior to the session, then I suggest that equal responsibility for that sitution lies with Paul Simon.

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Glnk
Jul-28-2017, 00:40 GMT
Unknown


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Whether they should have received co writing credits depends on several factors but basically comes down to whether the average listener can tell that one song has been copied from the other. If there is substantial doubt as to their similarity then no they shouldn't have received writing credits but it isn't the kind of technical detail you can resolve by a handshake or verbal agreement (if there was even that).

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Bodo
Jul-28-2017, 10:29 GMT
Austria


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how should the question about writting credits be answered by asking if "one song has been copied from the other" ?

It is not a dispute of "plagiarism" Glnk.

There is only 1 song.


The question is: Did Los Lobos write the music to that song alone, and did they write it BEFORE going into studio with Paul Simon

If they can not Proof they wrote it before, then the contract they signed might give all songwriting credits to Paul Simon for anything that happened during the recording sessions).

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Bodo
Jul-28-2017, 10:48 GMT
Austria


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If we consider how Paul was writting the music to songs like The Obvious Child, then I would say Steve Berlin sure has a point...
Recording says "Music and Lyrics by Paul Simon" for the Obvious child.
But it is also true that (according to wikipedia): The song's drum introduction is indebted to "Madagascar", a song by Olodum from their 1987 LP Egito Madagáscar.

and

the song breaks into an instrumental fragment that,{..}, echoes the Silhouettes' 1957 doo-wop hit, "Get a Job".


So what music has Simon written for The Obvious child? Obviously he has taken two songs and made a new one out of it.

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Bodo
Jul-28-2017, 10:58 GMT
Austria


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ok, that is really just a shilouette...
https://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysKhbaLyIFw
(the baaa-booom part shines trough)



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Glnk
Jul-28-2017, 12:27 GMT
Unknown


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They should have made recordings of all songs not on an album, which would be everything from rehearsal if this is a band that never improvises. You may not even need a contract but at least there would have been a possible court case.

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Bodo
Jul-29-2017, 09:29 GMT
Austria


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With the 2004 release of the early version of All Around The World we have a little bit insight on how the song developed. We can not be sure how much change was already done at this point, it already has vocals but the vocals by David Hidalgo are missing.


So this could be the pure Los Lobos track, maybe some percussions have been added already.

The beginning is very different IMO, Paul only used the harmonica, obviously much more important to him, and erased the prominent guitar lick. A bass line has been added.

Steve Gadd played additional drums on the track
and Ralph MacDonald percussion, so Paul must have spend some more time in the studio with them on re-building the song to his needs. I wonder where the bass-melody in the intro of the last version comes from, I can not hear it in the early version, but also no other bass player is listed for track 11.

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