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Bodo
Jul-22-2012, 00:06 GMT
Austria


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http://stereogum.com/9106/david_byrne_does_paul_si
mon_the_worlds_biggest_pri/video/

a lot of discussions...

DannyJ
Jul-22-2012, 09:59 GMT
United Kingdom


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Hi Bodo, thanks for the link!

That's a very interesting article with some good discussion underneath. It's interesting that it keeps on coming up, like a bad penny, but Paul has dad an interesting life. After all, the unexamined life is not worth living... I STOLE that off Socrates!

There's an old adage: Where there's a hit, there's a writ (not sure who I stoke that off though) The fact that the Sax player from Los Lobos was still banging on about this 20 years later is very sad. They said, by their own admission, that they didn't expect what they were doing to be a hit. The boast about how 'in their eyes' they were much bigger stars than PS at the time (give me a break! Believe your own hype all you want Los Lobos, but be realistic). It was only after the album became a phenomenal success they wanted in.

The African musicians call Paul their brother. They hold each other close, and share in their passion for music and friendships. That does't sound like a thief and his victim to me.

I recall Lady Gaga's ex-boyfriend trying to sue here for her name, claiming that 'he' gave her the idea in a wonky text message! Shouldn't the credit actually go to Nokia in that case?

Bitterness is like cancer. It eats upon the host: Maya Angelou (Stole that one too!)

"I’ll tell you, if the guys ever did run into him, I wouldn’t want to be him, that’s for sure." That sounds like a blatant and open threat of physical violence to me... So that's the kind of people you are then, Los Lobos? How lovely! Don't expect to see me at any of your shows.

Bodo
Jul-22-2012, 10:38 GMT
Austria


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Thats all true Danny.

But there is always some bitterness, it might have to do with the success of one Person and the struggling of others.

In Pauls career we hade some questionable moments (as other big artists had too, including Michael Jackson a.s.o)

- Scarborough Fair (Martin Carthy thought it is his song, although he only introduced it to Paul as an old english folk song... cleared up in 2000)
- The cool cool River (Vincent played a traditional fighting rhythm to Paul and he arranged that song in the studio as credits say - but who wrote the melody and lyrics: Paul)
- General MD Shirinda said some bad words about Simon now playing HIS song. Well, I know what I know has shared songwriting credits, although I would say Paul only wrote the lyrics
- Also Ray Phiri had some bad words on Paul (co writting Graceland..?). There is a youtube video I just can't find at the moment - but he seems to love it to play again in 2012 with him.
- The Los Lobos story....

(add some more if you want)

Anyway, Steve Gadd could come up and say that he wants writting credits for 50-ways, but he doesn't.

I think the amount of how much someone contributes isn't always much enough to share songwriting credits. Paul can arrange it to a real perfect tune and in other hands it might be just nothing/waste. For a session musician like Steve Gadd or Vincent it might be much better to have a job for the next 20 to 30 years than to earn a few thousand $$$ just once.

Michiel
Jul-22-2012, 10:39 GMT
Netherlands


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I think we do not have all necessary info to judge who is right here. I'm a big Paul Simon fan. There are arguments to believe Paul Simon. There are arguments to believe Los Lobos. Even being a PS fan, I want to look fair at things. There are elements in Simons reply where I have my doubts. There are elements in the Los Lobos reply where I have my doubts.

There is no solution to this, other than that PS en LL talk this out. If they want to. And if anyone of the two sides does not want to, that would be the side where you could have the real doubts, because not wanting to solve this is not a positive human thing. But that's my opinion.

DannyJ
Jul-22-2012, 10:58 GMT
United Kingdom


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I agree Michiel, we don;t have all the information, and besides, 26 years has now passes. I bet no-one can quite remember exactly. Both sides will have hardened into their own version of the truth, neither of them wrong, but different opinions.

Paul was the glue that bonded all these musicians together, and through him, they were able to create something great. It would not have happened without him. I accept Paul seems to be naive at times, and self opinionated, I do find it laughable that Los Lobos think they have some claim to Paul's throne. If it wasn't for Paul, I would never have heard of them!

A very, very good point re: Steve Gadd, Bodo! :-)

Mimi
Jul-22-2012, 20:00 GMT
Austria


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The point for me is that they did not want to work with Paul and were talked into it by the record company. And the fact that they thought of doing him a favour because they were "more famous" at that moment. If that is the beginning of a musical relationship - no wonder it turned out bad and they feel betrayed.

They should have turned down the offer right from the beginning. If you do not trust one another and you can not talk about what you do not like, it can easily end in frustration. And the fact, that Graceland became such a big hit and they would have earned a lot of money with writing credits did not help either.

Bodo
Jul-22-2012, 21:04 GMT
Austria


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They story by Los Lobos has a few problems and most of it was their own fault.

a) If it was one of their songs from the beginning, then they did not tell this to Paul. They did not even want to talk to him. So what? Steve Berlin always only mentions "we thought"...we were thinking...

b) They never ever recorded just a piece of it before. Now that makes you really wonder what it was - A guitar lick and some rhythm? Was it a real song?

c) The deal how it would work out was made before, I am pretty sure they had a contract and such things, but they simply did not read it.

d) Their style of making music is a little bit strange in my eyes - at least Steve Berlin said they NEVER jam, they only play songs. Thats a joke, isn't it? How should that work if you want to write a new song? The worlds finest and best musicians are all jazz musicians - and what they do is: They jam every time, also at live concert they re-interpret their songs and play them different.
So what kind of Band is Los Lobos? They go into a music store, buy some notes and play those songs? Or is one of the guys sitting at home all night, writes down the notes and brings them to the band so they have something new for playing? Strange.
If you can't jam you can not write songs.
Paul simply wanted to come and jam a little bit to get a feeling for their sound.

e) Steve Berlin may never had the will to listen to the Graceland album, but if Paul is not able to spell the word zydeco why does he sing it on That was your mother? This guy sounds so confident about himself that he simply can not get the facts right anymore in my opinion. He seems to be full of hate and grinning about some lost dollars.

f) Is it really that impossible to reach Paul Simon / his management? NO, I know it is easy. Call his office in NY. Even from SouthAfrica you can call it ;-)
They have been signed to Warner both so I can not believe that they could not talk to him or at least his brother.

g) They said Paul answered "go and sue me" - I am at 100% sure this never ever happened that way. As Paul said, the first thing he ever heard was when some lawyers contacted him - So Los Lobos came with a lawyer and not Paul, but now they try to flip the story and say Paul is the bad guy who wants to go to court. Thats only manipulation.


h) Paul had no problem to release a early version of the track for the Graceland remasters. I don't think he has any bad feelings about the whole thing today. You know, it was a bigger risk to bring up the story again if you release another version of the song on a CD than just playing it live. I have no clue why he never does it at concerts but he might think that this is none of his favourites...

Los Lobos has a nice overal sound - but I am not wrong when I say their greatest hit 'La bamba' is just another short fart in the history of meaningless songs next to Lambada and Bamboleo and whatever is on your mind. Call it a summer hit if you want.


It could be that just this Steve Berlin guy is the only one who is not over it and David Hidalgo and the rest of the band are happy with their life.

Michiel
Jul-22-2012, 23:21 GMT
Netherlands


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A lot of details which do not answer the key question whether LL were also the creators of MOFP... If they were, they are right to feel angry about it. What speaks against Paul is that he had to redo the cover especially because he had given all credits for other songs to himself initially. Changing that afterwards proofs he was not that reliable at that time in honestly sharing credits. And that's a fact also.

Michiel
Jul-22-2012, 23:26 GMT
Netherlands


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A lot of details which do not answer the key question whether LL were also the creators of MOFP... If they were, they are right to feel angry about it. What speaks against Paul is that he had to redo the cover especially because he had given all credits for other songs to himself initially. Changing that afterwards proofs he was not that reliable at that time in honestly sharing credits. And that's a fact also.

Bodo
Jul-22-2012, 23:27 GMT
Austria


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Yeah Michiel, that point really speaks against Paul.

Michiel  
Jul-22-2012, 23:31 GMT
Netherlands


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Bye the way, did PS ever mention Bach as co creator of the tune of American Tune?

Brenda
Jul-22-2012, 23:39 GMT
Australia


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I read this article last week. Steve Berlin is so full of hatred for Paul. He says anyone who has ever worked with Paul says he is the biggest jerk in the world. I did not see much evidence of that with the South African musicians. Also they were doing Paul a favour working with him as Paul had just had a failure with a Broadway play? A decade too early Steve.



http://www.rockcellarmagazine.com/2012/07/17/viva-
los-lobos-interview-with-steve-berlin/

Scaaty
Jul-23-2012, 01:35 GMT
Ireland


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Re credits on the original album - all the original early albums had very little information and credits about contributing musicians - this sort of thing only came into vogue with the introduction of set standards in all aspects of life - it wasn't badness but lack of thought/awareness methinks

Jay
Jul-23-2012, 03:23 GMT
USA - United Staates America


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Despite my love for PS's music I believed Steve Berlin's story until I actually heard him say it himself, and he sounds like hes full of it. Check it out in the youtube link. My gut tells me he's either completely lying or he's exaggerating things greatly. Also I've never really heard any complaints about Paul from other musicians involved in Graceland or anything else for that matter, and Steve Berlin claims everyone hates him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9m5rLHoDzcA

Michiel
Jul-23-2012, 07:23 GMT
Netherlands


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No for me it convinces me more. Most of us are avoiding the key question which is ' is LL co creator of MOFP?'. If so, then I can imagine LL is angry. Despite all other things mentioned about whether they like PS or not etc, is irrelevant. It is like sayning 'O he is drinking beer. Well that certainly means he cannot be co creator of MOFP.'
I think being a PS fan does not mean defend things of him which were no good. if they happened of course, and to judge that we do not have sufficient info.

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