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HeadlineThe Heidi Berg story

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Jay
May-16-2011, 21:33 GMT
USA - United Staates America


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From my understanding, Vincent didn´t write that groove, it was an older traditional one.

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Proof
May-16-2011, 21:35 GMT
USA - United Staates America


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Vincent said that they cut the track for Cool Cool River when Paul wasn´t even in the studio. To Paul´s credit, the lyrics are amazing and Vincent has had steady work for many years. To his discredit, it´s not cool to steal. Of course, there are two sides to every story, and I haven´t heard Mr. Simon´s...

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Jay
May-16-2011, 21:42 GMT
USA - United Staates America


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What all did Vincent say?

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Proof
May-16-2011, 21:47 GMT
USA - United Staates America


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Basically, that he was young, powerless, and naive and got taken advantage of in terms of writing credit. Happens to us all. I remember Keith Richards talking about getting ripped off by Alan Klein and calling it "the price of an education"

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Proof
May-16-2011, 21:57 GMT
USA - United Staates America


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Vincent did not tell me this was something I shouldn´t talk about. If he had, I wouldn´t. The guy who signs your checks is always someone you´re a little afraid of...

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Ian
May-17-2011, 09:09 GMT
Australia


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Um,isn´t Vincent approximately in the same age group as Paul? Paul was in his late 40´s when he made ROTS,hardly young and naive in my opinion. I´m sorry to see this subject brought up again actually. When it comes to Cool,Cool River,I´m sure that Paul employed Vincent etc,as hehad employed Eric Gale. That is to do what a session musician is sawed to do,which is to come up with interesting licks and sheer to adorn the already composed song. A song is chords,melody and lyrics. The middle part of TCCR is undeniably Paul Simon by the way. You only have to listen to his acoustic guitar part to hear that.

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Ian
May-17-2011, 09:15 GMT
Australia


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Gotta stop posting from my phone without checking the word choices it has picked for me. The words were ´paid´ not ´sawed´,and ´riffs´ not ´sheen´. Apologies.

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Forum guest
May-17-2011, 13:46 GMT
Unknown


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I would like to point out several things about the posting by "Guest" on the 16th. His or her IP address is in the Midwestern U.S., nowhere near MYC. The misspelling "theif" is not one normally made by an educated native English speaker. Also, both Lorne Michaels and Mr. Simon are ethnic Jews, and Mr. Michaels is an immigrant from Canada. I lived in Nashville for many years, and can attest to the fact that many people in the popular music business lead unconventional, even unsavory, lives. Why is Mr. Simon being singled out for this person´s scorn?

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Bodo
May-17-2011, 14:15 GMT
Austria


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Uh - I don´t get what the actual IP address location has had to do with the message (the job was 25 years ago...and AFAIK you are allowed to move inside the USA)

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Forum guest
May-17-2011, 14:25 GMT
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What I´m saying is, I doubt this person ever worked for Lorne Michaels. Even if he or she did, was he or she close enough to Lorne Michaels to know if this story was true. I think this posting was motivated by hate. Does it tell you something that I´m not using my name?

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Bodo
May-17-2011, 14:25 GMT
Austria


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Well, I agree with Joey - why should Paul give writting credits on The Coast, and not on the Cool Cool river? He clearly mentions Vincent as the arranger, and in the youtube interview you posted Paul explains that this is a fighting rhythm: so it sounds like as if this a traditional song, and not one written by Vincent.
For me it looks like as if Paul was looking exactly whom he should credit. So if Vincent told Paul this is a traditional fighting rhythm and later he realized that he has written that melody, then it maybe was his fault.
However, I do not think that Paul had absolute NOTHING to do with the music. It could have been that he was not in the studio when finally the band recorded their tracks - and Vincent arranged them, but I am sure he had made every decission before and afterwards about which instruments and rhythms will be played, and he wrote the lyrics and gave them a melody. Thats what I think.

Oh, and I am not sure if it would make much difference in the money Vincent would have earned for co-written msuci (because The Cool Cool river is not a song which is played on the radio anyway...at least I never heard it)

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mog
May-17-2011, 14:25 GMT
Canada


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Well, we have discussed this many, many times.

For a long time, I had been an admirer of ROTS and was thinking how genius Simon was to make such an album. ´Words & Music by Paul Simon´...you know.

One thing that really opened my eyes though is the clip from that woman who made the Paul Simon Music series on YouTube. When it came to the conception of ROTS, it was very enlightning. They recorded lots of drums over in Brasil, then select a few beats they liked, mixed them, and construct songs out of them. Is this writing ? I guess so. But I don´t think it was ever Simon saying to drummers : ´Oh, I was thinking about this beat, could you play it ?´. One of genius behind ROTS is clearly Roy Halee.

What was really Simon´s contribution overall ? I don´t know, but I do notice that he plays very little on that album. Surely, on the whole, it is an amazing record, and I sure give him credit for presenting it to us in such an appealing way !

Do not forget that at the end of the 1980´s, Simon was a big name, and after the success of Graceland, I guess he was able to have musicians forget about ´man, that is my line dude!´ in compensation of notoriety he was bringing to them.

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Ian
May-17-2011, 20:15 GMT
Australia


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My point is that Al Dimeola never got a writing credit for Allergies,nor Tony Levin for One-Trick Pony or Steve Gadd for(choose your song),because they were paid for their contribution as befits the role of a studio musician. If we proceed along the lines of the other way of thinking,would mean redefining completely the term ´words and music written by´,and believe me that would affect MANY more artists other than Paul Simon.

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Mike
May-17-2011, 20:37 GMT
USA - United Staates America


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^ The Beatles are a clear example of that.

George Harrison wrote some great riffs without expecting credit. (Helping Ringo with "Octopus´ Garden" seemed like a nice gesture to me so that probably wouldn´t count in the argument here.)

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Jeroen
May-17-2011, 22:06 GMT
Netherlands


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That´s right. A songwriter organizes sound in such a way as to produce a coherent piece of music in the popular music format. He/ she uses the sounds he loves in order to freeze a certain emotion/ situation. The Beatles used Rhythm and Blues and current girl groups etc. The Rolling Stones modelled their music after Muddy Waters´. However, popular music started off by white people making profits off black culture. That´s why Paul Simon´s forays into black culture has such a nasty discourse surrounding it. Still, it´s a artistic venture and, as far as I´m concerned, a very rewarding one.

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